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Sunday, July 05 2009

With all due respect, when the President of France is quicker to defend the cause of freedom than the President of the United States, it's a sad day.  Welcome to the pitiful reality of Obama's brave new world.

 

In last week's column, I focused on President Obama's domestic agenda in illustrating the fundamental disagreements our 44th president has with our Founding Fathers and their faith in the unrelenting power of human liberty. 

 

But if there is any area where Obama's frightening disregard for the virtues of freedom becomes even more glaring, it is in his disastrous foreign policy.  In his inaugural address, the new president tipped his hand when he declared to the mad regimes of the world, "To those who cling to power through corruption and deceit and the silencing of dissent, know that you are on the wrong side of history, but that we will extend a hand if you are willing to unclench your fist."

 

At the time, Obama's words appealed to many as they demonstrated a marked departure from the past.  The conventional wisdom was that the eight years of George W. Bush had seen a dangerous isolation of regimes like Iran and North Korea that had made them more violent and unpredictable.  Extending a hand for peaceful coexistence, it was thought, would make these countries come to their senses.  But as Alexander Benard notes, "a dozen missile launches, a nuclear detonation, a rigged election, and countless crackdowns on individual liberties later, it is safe to say this effort has had the opposite of its intended effect."  Without question.

 

But Obama is not the first American president to misjudge foreign adversaries, or to indulge the fond illusions of hope against the better senses of many more savvy than himself.  He is not the first American president to learn the hard way or be forced to change course.  But he is the first American president to demonstrate such a disinterest in standing up for freedom before a watching world.

 

It started with questionable speeches in Turkey and Cairo in which he extolled the virtues of a religion (Islam) that stands diametrically opposed to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.  Elevating it to an intellectual and moral equivalence with the Judeo-Christian ethic of the United States was disturbing and bizarre.  Failing to condemn the atrocities and horrors committed by those who follow its plain teachings was dishonest and disconcerting.

 

But the utter lack of response to the courageous stand taken by thousands of repressed Iranians following the Ayatollah-rigged sham of an election was simply inexcusable.  It was an embarrassment to the American people, and one for which Barack Obama owes his office, his country, and the world an apology.

 

When the communists were oppressing the freedom loving dissidents of the Solidarity movement in Poland back in 1982, the freedom-fighters bolstered their convictions through the knowledge that they had the support of the Americans.  Why?  Because the American president Ronald Reagan let them know.  Declaring "Solidarity Day," he blasted the communist thugs and immediately condemned their persecution.

 

Years later, the leader of that Solidarity movement became president of Poland and said this: "When talking about Ronald Reagan, I have to be personal.  We in Poland took him so personally.  Why?  Because we owe him our liberty.  This can't be said often enough."

 

Contrast that to the image of Iranians staring into cameras begging, "Please don't leave us alone," or weeping over bleeding martyrs asking reporters, "Are we on our own?"  The answer they received from the American president was stone cold silence.

 

Finally, after being shamed by congressional Republicans who refused to stand for his cowardly inaction and pushed through a condemnation of Iranian repression by a 405-1 vote, President Obama toughened his rhetoric.  Sort of.  After condemning the violence, he shockingly stated his belief that, "It's not too late" for Iran's regime to negotiate with the international community.

 

This was an outrage of the highest order.  Not only does it suggest that the United States is willing to partner with such enemies of humanity, it horrifyingly signals to Iranian freedom-fighters President Obama's belief that they will be unsuccessful.  And, that once they have been crushed into submission, the U.S. is ready to shake hands with their killers. 

 

Given these realities perhaps we shouldn't have been surprised when President Obama rushed to the defense of Honduras' would-be dictator Zelaya, attempting to prevent his ouster by democratic forces.  This is where Barack Obama has brought us: freedom loving people in Honduras taking to the streets protesting their oppression from a socialist dictator and his allies in Ortega of Nicaragua, Chavez of Venezuela, Castro of Cuba...and the President of the United States of America.  Barack Obama is no friend of freedom.

Posted by: Peter Heck AT 06:11 pm   |  Permalink   |  67 Comments  |  Email
Comments:
Isn't it sad how the left wants to appease dictators? (Don't forget about Russia vs. Georgia.) They simply want everyone to get along? (That is, as long as freedom lovers give in to tyrants.) Furthermore, I think it's ironic that Pete will be labeled a "hater" for speaking his mind, but liberals were considered patriotic when they attacked Pres. Bush. Pete, be ready to defend why you never criticized Pres. Bush's foreign policy. Just like Carter brought us Reagan, Pres. Obama will bring us the next conservative president. (Palin 2012)
Posted by vcamatt on 07/06/2009 09:15:53
It is mindboggling, appalling, and saddening how many speaking from ideologies of the left express support, and at times adoration, for totalitarians.
Posted by ChucksChants on 07/06/2009 12:55:07
Liberals are clearly all fascists. Only fascists would want to help provide for the poor, the sick, the hungry, and other low-life have-nots. Jesus never preached anything like that!
Posted by N. Gavelis on 07/07/2009 11:06:10
What do you mean, NGav? I don't follow how that had anything to do with my column or the couple comments that had been posted. Who said anything like that?
Posted by peterheck on 07/07/2009 11:29:21
On a less sarcastic note, it's mindboggling how so many of the same people who now pretend to care about Iranians were demanding we drop bombs on them a few months back. Right-wing chickenhawks don't give a hoot about the Iranian people and never have. The only reason they suddenly support the Iranians is because they want to rattle the Ayatollah, which is all they actually care about. The people I am talking about tend to run in the same circles as the Bomb Mecca crowd. Real humanitarians.
Posted by N. Gavelis on 07/07/2009 11:31:30
NGav...what are you talking about? I remember those 'right-wing chickenhawks' being interested in removing the threat the Iranian regime posed to American and Israeli security, yes. But I don't remember the 'bomb Iranian civilians' calls. You're becoming unhinged and making less sense with every post you make.
Posted by Mr. T. on 07/07/2009 13:06:57
Let's have some more looks at NGav's quotes: "when Mr. Heck says America is losing its Christian underpinnings, forgetting that America is a secular nation founded by deists and Christians on Enlightenment principles, he's already wrong" (6-05). "Of course Christian principles were important in maintaining social order and restraints - the colonies were of Christian heritage." (6-27)
Posted by Mr. T on 07/07/2009 13:08:12
"The most obvious hint that America isn't a Christian nation is the complete absence of Xianity in this country's founding documents. The closest thing to a Xian gesture is the reference to a Creator in the Declaration, a term that is conspicuously ambiguous - could be deist, Xian, or anything/everything monotheistic. Also, multiple Founders and subsequent Presidents were deists, making America arguably less Xian back then than it is today, politcally." (6-07) "Of course Christian principles were important in maintaining social order and restraints - the colonies were of Christian heritage." (6-27)
Posted by Mr. T on 07/07/2009 13:09:32
Hey Mr. T, why not actually read the words that you are so hastily copying and pasting? Never did I claim Christianity was not CULTURALLY important to America. My only claim is that America is a SECULAR NATION from a LEGAL standpoint, e.g., THE CONSTITUTION. If that concept is over your head, invest in a floatie.
Posted by N. Gavelis on 07/07/2009 13:46:50
Pete, my first comment was in reference to Chuck's idle observation that liberals are in love with fascists. I think this kind of ignorance comes from the fact that liberals and conservatives are somewhat geographically separated in this country and some of them don't get around enough to understand what the other side actually believes.
Posted by N. Gavelis on 07/07/2009 13:54:06
Scratch that. Chuck seems like an educated guy so in his case it's probably less about ignorance and more about cynicism. A liberal with his mindset might observe that white supremacists are almost invariably conservative, and then based on that observation, they might conclude that conservatism is somehow deeply connected with racism. That kind of cynicism isn't terribly realistic or healthy, though.
Posted by N. Gavelis on 07/07/2009 14:09:13
I always find the "we never have been a Christian nation" argument a bit humorous. I quote from the Pennsylvania Constitution written September 28, 1776. This was a part of the oath of office, mind you. "I do believe in one God, the creator and governor of the universe, the rewarder of the good and the punisher of the wicked. And I do acknowledge the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by Devine inspiration." That doesn't seem to be the kind of mandatory oath required of atheists or deists, but maybe that's just me.
Posted by Asburystrider on 07/07/2009 14:11:03
BTW, NG, you don't suppose you could tone down the harsh rhetoric. That is, after all, what you criticized Peter of doing. In this thread alone you've accused others of calling liberals fascists (untrue), being "right wing chicken hawks", not caring about the Iranian people, and being ignorant of the issues. You don't suppose that you could provide factual debate of the assertion that leftist ideologies have sympathies to varying degrees with totalitarians rather than belittling the individuals, do you?
Posted by Asburystrider on 07/07/2009 14:19:25
Re: N. Gavelis's response to my post. (1) I offer no cynicism but simple factual observation. There are many from the left who have and still do express a great deal of fond adoration for the likes of Castro, Chavez, Lenin, and other totalitarians living and dead. One recent example: the black caucus trip to Cuba. A quick review of their various statements from that trip provides a lot of overt evidence. This is only one example of many; so much so that I find it hard to be guilty of inadequate sampling.
Posted by ChucksChants on 07/07/2009 18:19:46
(2) Liberals might depict white supremacists as "invariably conservative," but they are not. There is no basis for it. Conservative ideology does not hate Jews; they do. Nor Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, etc.; they do. White supremacists typically express that society must be ruled with a firm hand by government (albeit their government); conservative ideology gives expression to concepts such as freedom and liberty. However, when we trace the heritage of modern liberalism, or progressivism, we find notables such as Margaret Sanger who promoted eugenics as a means to diminish certain inferior races. So who is most alike in the arena of racism?
Posted by ChucksChants on 07/07/2009 18:26:57
N. Gavelis writes: "My only claim is that America is a SECULAR NATION from a LEGAL standpoint, e.g., THE CONSTITUTION." Actually, what the Constitution provides is a limited FEDERAL government. The limitations provided by the document and its amendments (which not all Founders favored), included religion; viz. a viz., there would be no religious sect mandated by the FEDERAL government. At the time, however, the Constitution did not supersede the state constitutions, which frequently did include various religious tests. Why did the federal not supersede the state?
Posted by ChucksChants on 07/07/2009 18:56:08
Because the Founders - you know, the ones who wrote documents like the Constitution & the Amendments & the Declaration of Independence - set it up this way. This is the way they envisioned it and the way they liked it. From both a cultural AND legal standpoint, America was founded as a Christian nation; at least in the respect that its foundational and operational ethical, moral, and legal principles were based upon the Judeo-Christian faith (and not in the respect that every citizens had to be a Christian). "If that concept is over your head, invest in a floatie." [That's a good one! :) ]
Posted by ChucksChants on 07/07/2009 18:57:02
N. Gavelis writes: "Liberals are clearly all fascists. Only fascists would want to help provide for the poor, the sick, the hungry, and other low-life have-nots." Fascinatin'. Absolutely fascinatin'. Your implication is that conservative ideology contains no provisions for charity and that those espousing such ideology will not help those you list. Actually, I am well aware what liberals hope to accomplish. They state so all the time with the clear message that they are the only ones who can accomplish it.
Posted by ChucksChants on 07/07/2009 21:11:49
The only difference between liberal and conservative ideology on the points of charity and philanthropy is that conservative policies actually accomplish it and, generally, liberal policies do not. The reason for the respective success and failure is rather straightforward and simple: liberal policies attempt to accomplish their ideology through expanded government programs and their associated mandates. In a word, liberal ideologies drive toward collectivism and managed society. The talents, skills, and abilities of a general citizenship are distrusted; they can only be harnessed and directed through the power of a managed and collective government.
Posted by ChucksChants on 07/07/2009 21:17:38
The result of such collectivism is always some form of that which we all eschew: fascism. Oh, it usually looks all well and good at the outset. You know, everyone has free healthcare, free education, free energy (TNSTAAFL). The trains run on time; that sort of thing. But the drawback comes when these things must be managed. In order to make all these things work, citizens must conform to the needs of the government. And when push comes to shove, it becomes the citizens who must conform to the collectivist government and not the other way around. That sort of puts it at variance with the Founder's intent, don't you think?
Posted by ChucksChants on 07/07/2009 21:26:17
In the end, the policies of liberal ideology accomplish just the opposite of the original intent. They don't work. It's not because the intentions are faulty; it's just that the implementation constantly and consistently fails. Plus, linking liberalism to fascism is completely accurate. "Even more telling, FDR's defenders openly admitted their admiration of fascism. Rexford Guy Tugwell, and influential member of FDR's Brain Trust, said of italian Fascism, 'It's the cleanest, neatest most efficiently operating piece of social machinery I've ever seen. It makes me envious.'" (Jonah Goldberg, Liberal Fascism, 2007, p. 11)
Posted by ChucksChants on 07/07/2009 21:31:59
Here's something else to consider. Why do liberals champion the cause of the Palestinians leaders? Israel would be more than willing to live in peace with their neighbors. The PLO is determined to wipe out Israel. Why does the left continue to back leaders that have no interest in the freedom of Israel, or their own people for that matter? They are willing to enslave their own people because of their hatred for the Jews.
Posted by vcamatt on 07/08/2009 08:51:59
NG, this seems to contradict your first post in this thread. You said "fascists would want to help provide for the poor..." That is not at all what the Palestinian leaders want to do. They deny their own people basic necessities in order to fund their terrorism against Israel. It seems to me that they don't care about their own people. They are the ones blinded by their own religious bigotry. The very kind you try to connect Christians with.
Posted by vcamatt on 07/08/2009 08:58:31
Chuck, you suggest that if there are a sufficient number of examples of correlation between two things (e.g., liberals and sympathy to totalitarians), then there is a link. You looked around at liberals including the black caucus, and you decided there was as link. Yet you could not bring yourself to apply these same standards to conservatives. Please do. I'm not asking for philosophical acrobatics like what you gave me above - I'm just asking you to *look around.* Examine white supremacist groups, their platforms, and their voting records. I did.
Posted by N. Gavelis on 07/08/2009 12:59:32
So while your philosophical arithmetic might find no link between white supremacy and the right, your own brand of "factual observation" does. As for your last two posts, thank you for that little history lesson, but where in them do you even begin to support your argument that America's "legal principles were based upon the Judeo-Christian faith." ??? Moral and ethical principles maybe, but what legal principles? If not for that empty claim, I would have completely agreed with your last two posts.
Posted by N. Gavelis on 07/08/2009 13:08:06
Strider, you'll find many such statements in state constitutions. Even today, the state constitution of Mississippi (go figure) bars atheists from office. The problem for theocrats is that all forms of state-endorses religious bigotry are trumped by the Establishment Clause in the Constitution. The fact that American Christians have managed to write bigotry into state law only reflects that there is a lot of bigotry out there, not that our nation was legally founded on it. The case for a Christian America is put to bed in the United States Constitution.
Posted by N. Gavelis on 07/08/2009 13:23:13
Speaking of being put to bed...the Supreme Court in 1892 Church of the Holy Trinity v. U.S.: "These and many other matters which might be noticed add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation. We see everywhere a clear recognition of this same truth." N.Gav, with all due respect, you're getting eaten alive here.
Posted by Mr. T on 07/08/2009 13:30:07
With all do respect, your conservative/white supremacist argument is nonsense. Of course there is overlap on some elements. You could make the same argument with the Nazi economic policy and the Democrat party, but I wouldn't call the Democrat party Nazi sympathizers. The obvious difference is that conservatives are very vocal about their abhorrence of white supremacist ideology and practice while the left is reluctant to bring their condemnation of totalitarian rulers. Please use a little more sense on this.
Posted by Asburystrider on 07/08/2009 13:42:17
"The problem for theocrats is that all forms of state-endorses religious bigotry are trumped by the Establishment Clause in the Constitution." Absolutely right. The founders had no intention of forming a theocracy. But they did endorse the free practice of religion and were themselves very religious. The fact that states had overtly Christian recognition both before AND AFTER the Constitution ought to indicate what even the founders expected the role of Christianity and religious practice to be within the nation at all levels. This is a far cry from a national religion on one end (establishment of religion) or no religion at all at the other end (prohibiting the free exercise thereof).
Posted by Asburystrider on 07/08/2009 13:49:06
Thanks for the quote, Mr. T. Again, it helps to read what you are posting. If you did, you noticed the phrase "unofficial declaration." UNOFFICIAL. Pretty crucial word there, don't you think? Thank you again for supporting my point.
Posted by N. Gavelis on 07/08/2009 15:08:57
Has America's majority religion always be Christianity? Yes. Was America founded by mostly Christians? Yes. Does Christianity have a special *legal* status in this country that other religions do not? NO. ...Unless you can prove that last statement to be incorrect, then we don't actually disagree. You can call it a Christian nation if you want but I'll be more precise - it's a secular nation full of Christians.
Posted by N. Gavelis on 07/08/2009 15:22:34
Hi vcamatt. It must be very easy to just wave your hand and dismiss all non-zionists as anti-Semites. But you must know, not everyone believes one group of people has the right to suddenly displace an indigenous people by the millions because an ancient book says an invisible god says they can. Sorry, was that racism? I don't think so - I think that's called common sense. In college most of my friends were Jewish and many of them were opposed to Israeli actions against the Palestinians as a *human rights* issue. Ever consider that? Based on your comments, I'm guessing you haven't.
Posted by N. Gavelis on 07/08/2009 15:33:17
You got one thing right though, vcamatt: my first post does contradict the later ones. Know why? Because the first post is SARCASTIC. I'm surprised you didn't pick that up given that you claim to know so much about us liberals, including but not limited to our alleged universal hatred for Jews. I find that claim particularly laughable given that it would mean most of my Jewish friends are anti-Semites. Oh dear.
Posted by N. Gavelis on 07/08/2009 15:43:27
N. Gavelis writes, "So while your philosophical arithmetic might find no link between white supremacy and the right, your own brand of "factual observation" does." As you request of others concerning your posts, please read carefully. You might note that I differentiated between racial supremicists (white & otherwise) and CONSERVATIVE IDEOLOGY. There may be groups and organizations that identify themselves with the right - or are tossed in there by others - but they are at odds with conservative ideology. I have identified a few of those fundamental, significant differences. What do you have that indicates otherwise?
Posted by ChucksChants on 07/08/2009 17:09:06
N. Gavelis writes, "As for your last two posts, thank you for that little history lesson, but where in them do you even begin to support your argument that America's "legal principles were based upon the Judeo-Christian faith." ??? Moral and ethical principles maybe, but what legal principles? If not for that empty claim, I would have completely agreed with your last two posts." Where do you find that the legal principles put into motion at this nation's founding were not based upon the Judeo-Christian faith?
Posted by ChucksChants on 07/08/2009 17:15:05
N. Gavelis writes: "NO. ...Unless you can prove that last statement to be incorrect, then we don't actually disagree. You can call it a Christian nation if you want but I'll be more precise - it's a secular nation full of Christians." Yes, a secular nation... established upon the foundation of the Judeo-Christian faith. Comforting to know that we agree.
Posted by ChucksChants on 07/08/2009 17:17:49
"You can call it a Christian nation if you want but I'll be more precise - it's a secular nation full of Christians." I think you're very close here, though if I could modify your post to reflect the intent of the founders: "You can call it a secular nation if you want but I'll be more precise - it's a nation founded on Christian principles and morality full of secular individuals."
Posted by Asburystrider on 07/08/2009 21:17:49
"I know there is an objection among many people to teaching children doctrines of any kind, because they are liable to be controverted. But let us not be wiser than our Maker. If moral precepts alone could have reformed mankind, the mission of the Son of God into all the world would have been unnecessary. The perfect morality of the Gospel rests upon the doctrine which, though often controverted has never been refuted: I mean the vicarious life and death of the Son of God." -- Benjamin Rush, "Essays, Literary, Moral, and Philosophical." Not only a signer of the Declaration of Independence; he is also known as the "father of public schools."
Posted by ChucksChants on 07/09/2009 07:14:14
NG, Yes, I got your sarcasm. However, the point of your sarcasm is that only liberals care about the poor... (You can't stop yourself from being condescending.) I never said that all liberals have a universal hatred for Israel, but the PLO does. Furthermore, I never implied that every Jew supports every action of the Israeli government. (What's that got to do with my point about liberals supporting the PLO anyway?) Then there is your whole misrepresentation about the founding of the new nation of Israel in 1948.
Posted by vcamatt on 07/09/2009 09:10:33
It was your beloved UN that established Israel, was it not? There never was a Palestinian nation before then. That was simply the name of that geographical region. Furthermore, the "Palestinian" people have always had the ability to live in peace within the nation of Israel. However, it's the Muslim leaders that will not allow that to happen. Therefore, could you explain why liberals seem to support a group that refuses its people to live in peace with the Israeli people? (Try to write one post without a condescending attitude, please.)
Posted by vcamatt on 07/09/2009 09:16:47
One more piece of constructive criticism if I may. I am amazed how you seem to have this ability to read everyone's motives. For example, you said that "others don't get around enough to understand what the other side actually believes." (7/7/09; 12:54:06) Then you completely misrepresent what conservatives and Christians believe (displaying your ignorance on what we believe). You get so upset when anyone misunderstands your point, yet you have no problem with attributing evil motives to us. Oh, the toleration of the left. (That is sarcasm by the way!)
Posted by vcamatt on 07/09/2009 09:29:15
"Where do you find that the legal principles put into motion at this nation's founding were not based upon the Judeo-Christian faith?" So rather than support your own point, Chuck, you want me to prove a negative? That's a little silly, but if you don't want to prove your own point, that's fine with me. As for the negative, the founders made America's secular nature evident when they decided not to give Christianity any special legal status. Feel free to prove me wrong there, and not with quotes from various historical Christians, but with actual *law.*
Posted by N. Gavelis on 07/09/2009 12:44:27
Regarding your last post, vcamatt, look in the mirror buddy. You chastised me for mind-reading just one post after you say I love the UN, this based on nothing but the stereotypes in your head. (The UN is a joke!) You also assume liberals in general support the PLO, which is absolutely not true. I support the Israeli *people*, the Palestinian *people*, and the leadership of *neither.* I also support Africa, and I think that continent should get more aid from us than we give a single tiny, first-world nation. Yep, we give Israel more than we give all of starving Africa. Oh, and since I don't think I've condescended enough in this post, let me add that your understanding of the Palestine issue is about as one-sided as any I've seen.
Posted by N. Gavelis on 07/09/2009 13:00:52
By the way, matt, where did I misrepresent the founding of Israel? In fact, when have I even talked about the founding of Israel? The closest I came to that subject was noting how Israelis displaced Palestinians because of their supposed god-given right to do so. Does the Bible not say Palestine is the Jews' Promised Land? Please point out these colossal inaccuracies and hypocrisies that you so vaguely speak of.
Posted by N. Gavelis on 07/09/2009 13:18:40
Look, NG, you started your point by insisting that the US was founded as a secular nation, so we cited intent and practice of the nation at the founding. Now you're falling back on "what they said doesn't matter, only the law does". That's weak, especially when you consider that this rediculous interpretation of separation of church and state as we see from the secular humanists today is a very modern thing. The nation largely understood and practiced the founder's understanding of the role of religion in society for nearly 200 years before the secular humanist revisionist nonsense made its way into the courts and started interpreting the Constitution in a way that noone previous had. Don't pull this "show me the law" crap.
Posted by Asburystrider on 07/09/2009 20:16:44
N. Gavelis, as I reflect upon our discourse, it has occurred to me that I probably do not understand what you mean with your declarations that America's legal principles were not based upon the Judeo-Christian faith. If you want to illuminate what you mean, please do. What I mean by contending that America's legal principles were founded upon the Judeo-Christian faith is that lawmakers must make decisions about what is lawful and what is not. With regard to law, something is legal or it is not. Breaking a legally binding contract, for instance, is typically illegal. Why were the provisions of the law be set up that way?
Posted by ChucksChants on 07/10/2009 07:10:52
There may be any number of philosophical gymnastics some go through to get to the root of that question, but for the Founders, their overall source concerning matters of law was derived from the Judeo-Christian faith. They expressed their belief in moral laws contained in the Bible and acted on those beliefs, which were then codified into the laws of the new nation.
Posted by ChucksChants on 07/10/2009 07:17:43
This has nothing (OK, maybe little) to do with whether or not a religion was established by the federal government or not. It was not. It also has nothing, or little, to do with whether the new nation was secular or not. The Founders based their decisions for America's legal system and its subsequent laws upon the moral and ethical principles of the Judeo-Christian faith, if not in whole, then at least to the greater extent.
Posted by ChucksChants on 07/10/2009 07:18:06
To carry the content of the Founders' basis for law one factual step further, yes, they did not impose religious belief upon America's citizens, but they did revere the Bible and the faith of which it speaks. Those who chose to speak and act with disrespect toward God, the Scriptures, and the faith were generally regarded with great disfavor.
Posted by ChucksChants on 07/10/2009 09:25:55
In 1844, the $7 million estate of Stepehn Girard (a French deist) was to be used to establish an orphanage and school in Philadelphia with the stipulation that no religious influence be allowed. The city rejected the proposal. Their lawyers declared, "The plan of education proposed is anti-christian, and therefore repugnant to the law... The purest principles of morality are to be taught. Where are they found? Whoever searche for them must go to the source from which man derives his faith - the Bible... There is an obligation to teach what the Bible alone can teach, viz. a pure system of morality."
Posted by ChucksChants on 07/10/2009 09:32:29
The case went before the U.S. Supreme Court, Vidal v Girard's Executors, 43 U.S. 126, 132. Unanimous decision: "Christianity... is not to be maliciously and openly reviled and blasphemed against, to the annoyance of believers or the injury of the public... It is unnecessary for us, however, to consider the establishment of a school or college, for the propogation of... Deism, or for any other form of infidelity. Such a case is not to be presumed to exist in a Christian country... Where can the purest principles of morality be learned so clearly or so perfectly as from the New Testament? ...It is also said, and truly, that the Christian religion is a part of the common law of Pennsylvania."
Posted by ChucksChants on 07/10/2009 09:39:09
John Jay, a Founding Father and the first Chief Justice to the Supreme Court, declared in 1816, "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." This was not a legal ruling, of course, but does it not lend evidence to the discourse that the Founders' basis for ethics, morality, and law is derived from the Judeo-Christian faith?
Posted by ChucksChants on 07/10/2009 09:43:53
N. Gavelis writes, "On a less sarcastic note, it's mindboggling how so many of the same people who now pretend to care about Iranians were demanding we drop bombs on them a few months back." I take it your reference is to that ultra right-winger Joe Biden.
Posted by ChucksChants on 07/10/2009 09:45:40
N. Gavelis writes, "The closest I came to that subject was noting how Israelis displaced Palestinians because of their supposed god-given right to do so. Does the Bible not say Palestine is the Jews' Promised Land?" Are you aware of the origin of the "Palestinians?"
Posted by ChucksChants on 07/10/2009 09:46:51
You answered the question right after asking it. You suggest that Israel has displaced the Palestinian people. That is not accurate. What is wrong with how I said Israel was founded? Didn't the world community give them the land in 1948? Isn't it possible for Palestinians to live there in peace? Finally, what does it mean to say, "I support the Israeli people, and the Palestinian people and the leadership of neither."?
Posted by vcamatt on 07/10/2009 12:38:56
Has anyone else noticed how NG loves to dodge a debate by trying to bring up another topic? For example, in our discussion about why liberals don't support Israel, he brings up aid to Africa. What has that got to do with liberal support of a terrorist orgainization (PLO) instead of supporting freedom loving people (Israel)? Please give me your version of how Israel was founded, NG. Where was I wrong?
Posted by vcamatt on 07/10/2009 12:56:31
N. Gavelis writes, ""Where do you find that the legal principles put into motion at this nation's founding were not based upon the Judeo-Christian faith?" So rather than support your own point, Chuck, you want me to prove a negative?" An interesting complaint considering that you bring nothing to the plate other than the repetitious litany that America's legal principles were not derived from the Judeo-Christian faith. After declaring it so many times, one would be led to believe that your empirical evidence for it is overwhelming.
Posted by ChucksChants on 07/11/2009 21:07:30
From the case of Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 143 US 457-458, 465-471, 36 L ed 226, February 29, 1892: "Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilizations and our institutions are emphatically Christian." -- Justice Josiah Brewer
Posted by ChucksChants on 07/11/2009 21:17:55
Chuck, you said "What I mean by contending that America's legal principles were founded upon the Judeo-Christian faith is that lawmakers must make decisions about what is lawful and what is not." I agree lawmakers must decide what is legal/illegal, but what is exclusively Judeo-Christian about that? Also, your last quote says it is necessary that our laws/institutions must be based upon and embody the teachings of *mankind.* Isn't Christianity supposed to be a teaching of God, not of mankind? As such, the proceeding clause is a raging non-sequitur.
Posted by N. Gavelis on 07/13/2009 16:11:28
You're right Chuck; I don't bring much to the table when it comes to matters of quasi-theocracy. My case for America's secularism is based on what is *not* written in the U.S. Constitution, namely, the absence of any special legal status given to Xianity. As for vcamatt, America's putative Christianity reentered the conservation through Mr. T, not through me, so your theory that I'm deliberately changing the subject eats dirt. Concerning Africa, you don't think it's relevant that we give an entire starving continent less aid than we give the tiny, wealthy nation of Israel? Are racism and classism irrelevant to you?
Posted by N. Gavelis on 07/13/2009 16:28:17
One more thing Matt, if you think Israelis have not displaced Palestinians, you are dreaming. Back to Chuck, who said, "They expressed their belief in moral laws contained in the Bible and acted on those beliefs, which were then codified into the laws of the new nation." ...Judging by the fact that only 4 of the 10 commandments are written into law, I'd have to disagree. But your hypothesis would explain how slavery persisted for so long, given the Bible's position on it.
Posted by N. Gavelis on 07/13/2009 16:32:48
N. Gavelis writes, "Also, your last quote says it is necessary that our laws/institutions must be based upon and embody the teachings of *mankind.*" Hmmm... a critical piece of my quote got left out for some reason. Guess I was getting ahead of myself. Here is the correction... "Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of *the Redeemer of* mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilizations and our institutions are emphatically Christian." -- Justice Josiah Brewer My apology to all readers.
Posted by ChucksChants on 07/14/2009 08:33:14
N. Gavelis writes, "My case for America's secularism is based on what is *not* written in the U.S. Constitution, namely, the absence of any special legal status given to Xianity." And what *is* written into the Constitution is Amendment 10: "The powers not delegated to the Unites States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
Posted by ChucksChants on 07/14/2009 08:44:56
Now take that alongside the various state constitutions and laws that were in place before or shortly after the ratification of the U.S. Constitution and recognize that none of them were thought to be invalid. You see, Christianity did not need any "special legal status" granted from the U.S. Constitution; it was already in place in the various states. What the Founders make clear themsleves is that they were preventing the establishment of a national Christian sect.
Posted by ChucksChants on 07/14/2009 08:45:28
"We, therefore, the people of Massachussetts, acknowledging with grateful hearts, the goodness of the great Legislator of the universe, in affording us, in the course of His providence... [establish this Constitution]. The Governor shall be chosen annually; and no person shall be eligible to this office, unless, at the time of his election... he shall declare himself to be of the Christian religion."
Posted by ChucksChants on 07/14/2009 08:52:37
Massachusetts Grand Jury members were selected in 1802 by Judge Nathaniel Freeman, who declared and defined: "The laws of the Christian system, as embraced by The Bible, must be respected as of high authority in all our courts and it cannot be thought improper for the officers of such government to acknowledge their obligation to be governed by its rule... [Our government] originating in the voluntary compact of a people who in that very instrument profess the Christian religion, it may be considered, not as republic Romewas, a Pagan, but a Christian republic."
Posted by ChucksChants on 07/14/2009 08:56:34
NG, that was a lame explanation of where I was wrong in my explanation of Israel's founding. Isn't Israel willing to allow the Palestinians to live peaceably within their country if they would stop terrorising Israeli citizens? Haven't neighboring countries been unwilling to allow Palestinians to settle in their countries as well? You seem to have a simplistic analysis of the situation. You act as if Israel was formed with the sole intention of making life miserable for the poor Palestinians.
Posted by vcamatt on 07/21/2009 09:48:54

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